Right To Reply #6

The (long-awaited?) return of the feature which sees a number of bloggers (anyone got any good suggestions for a collective noun?) get together to comment and offer their thoughts on a vaguely topical subject. The debate doesn’t stop with the published post – feel free to carry it on in the comments box.

The subject: the change to the English licensing laws

The participants:
Ben - your host
Dave of London Calling
Girl of Girl With A One Track Mind
Inspector Sands of Casino Avenue
JonnyB of Jonny B’s Private Secret Diary
Pete of Expecting To Fly
Swiss Toni of Swiss Toni’s Place

Has the change affected many pubs / clubs near you? Has it had a noticeable impact on the area in which you live?

Swiss Toni: Lots of the main bars and clubs in Nottingham (and elsewhere) already had late licenses in place for the weekend, so from that point of view it has made very little difference.

Pete: Locally (Winchester), it's been hard to detect a change so far, especially as the pubs have been mysteriously empty over the last few weekends. Pubs are slightly more lenient on when it's comes to last orders, but that's about it.

Inspector Sands: As far as I can tell, not a lot, although I'm not a town centre drinker by habit anyway. My local's not opted for extended hours, although I did sneak a drink until 1am at a neighbouring boozer last weekend. But most places have either got licenses but aren't using them, or aren't shouting from the rooftops about their extended hours, so it'll take a long while to get a feel for what's happening. Christmas should be interesting.

Ben: Given how centrally we live, and the proximity of a Yates Wine Lodge (a misnomer if ever I heard one – it’s the sort of place that if you were caught supping on a glass of Chardonnay you’d get a pool cue in the face), our part of Birmingham has always seemed strangely quiet, and the change in the licensing law doesn’t appear to have made any discernible difference. Venture to the neon-lit sick-paved Broad Street – on a Friday night every bit the Daily Mail reader’s nightmare – and it’s likely to be a different story. I wouldn’t know for certain, though, as I do my best to steer clear.

Girl: I am now kept awake from drunken people singing loudly at 12am, 1am and 2am, rather than just around 11pm. They sound like felines on a caterwauling mating call; knowing the lads round here, it wouldn't surprise me if that wasn't far off what they were doing.

JonnyB: There's only one pub for miles. It hasn't applied for a new license. We locals are worried that it will ruin the secret illicit enjoyment of sitting in the dark after hours. Not that we do that. Never.

Dave: I haven't a clue if any of my locals have changed their opening hours. I rarely drink or go to pubs. I can't say I've noticed if later opening hours has affected my area as I'm usually fast asleep by 11pm.

Swiss Toni: Actually, the one thing that the council did that HAS made a difference to the town centre is when they decided to fill in the subways. If you had the misfortune to walk through one of these around closing time on a Friday night, you would find that they were awash with piss. Filling them in hasn’t stopped people from pissing in the street, but at least the smell doesn’t stay with you in quite the same way…

To what extent will it change personal drinking habits?

Dave: I think binge drinking will subside as we get used to longer hours. Folk will stop going out at 6pm (like in Newcastle) and will spread their evenings and alcohol consumption over a greater time period.

Inspector Sands: I was out with someone the other day who ordered his customary three pints at the 11pm bell, then we went off somewhere else, and at the 1am bell, he got another three pints in...

JonnyB: The example always given is the “post theatre” drinks, and I guess I'll be going for a couple of pints after the cinema etc. But there are lots of, for example, shift workers in the factories of King's Lynn. They would possibly like to go for a pint after work, at 5am. Whether catering for them would be economical for a publican, I'm doubtful.

Ben: It’s very true that the law may have changed but that for it to have any discernible impact on drinking habits there has to be a relatively widespread uptake of later licenses by publicans. At present only a minority of pubs and bars seem to have applied, and many of those that have are only trialling a late license to see how it works out – ultimately, as Jonny suggests, it’s a question of economics.

Swiss Toni: At a little after 11pm one Monday night a few weeks ago, I spilled out of a Franz Ferdinand gig at the Nottingham Arena and decided to look for somewhere to have a quick pint before heading home. The law had just changed, so I thought it would be simple. Wrong. I walked through town and forlornly peered through pub windows only to see that all the lights were switched off and the chairs were all stacked up on the tables. When I did finally find somewhere that was open though, it was great: there was a nice relaxed atmosphere, and I was able to enjoy a quiet pint to let the car park rush subside before heading home about midnight. This is how it should be.

Ben: The weekend before last, after having a meal with my parents, we all retired to The Old Fox in the city centre. The bar stayed open until 1.30am, and it made for a very pleasant and quiet late night drink (once the post-theatre crowd had left), a far cry from the raucous bars of the Arcadian, barely a stone’s throw away. It was in essence a whole new experience, and one that I can imagine will (re)introduce those who have felt alienated from social drinking for whatever reason (loud music, cramped bars, massive bar queues, being forced to stand) to its pleasures.

To what extent has it changed your own drinking habits?

Inspector Sands: Not a lot – although I'm lucky to drink somewhere that was never somewhere in a rush to throw you out at 11.20pm anyway. Where I go out is still going to be governed more by whether I like the place rather than whether it opens until 4am.

Pete: My drinking habits haven't changed much. If anything, they've reverted to the ones I had when I lived in Berlin and Prague: out more often, but drinking less ie "a cheeky pint in the evening".

Girl: It hasn't changed my drinking habits (yet) since I am sadly too busy to actually have a social life. But I am looking forward to going to my local and having a civilised pint sometime around midnight in a few weeks’ time.

Does the “European café culture” that we in Britain are supposedly aspiring to even exist on the continent?

Dave: I think the “European cafe culture” does exist but it's mainly for Europeans who are on holiday in other European countries. You may see Spanish folk sitting outside a Madrid city centre bar enjoying a drink at 3am but you won't see it in the suburbs of Madrid (I know this for a fact). I think we like to think that the French, Spanish and Italians are sophisticated drinkers because we've seen them when we're on holiday without realising that they are on holiday too. Late hours drinking has existed in Germany for years and you see some nasty violence on their streets at 5am.

Girl: From my experience being abroad, there most definitely is a "cafe culture", in that entire families go out no earlier than 10pm and drink until the late hours. The difference in other European countries is that their working hours are totally different to the UK's: they start earlier, have a break in the middle of the day, and then continue until late in the evening. So really, the whole going out later as a family thing is probably more to do with work schedules than anything particularly “cultural”.

Will we ever arrive at that sort of “culture”?

JonnyB: [We] might. But I doubt it. The idea that a basically administrative measure will change our national characteristics seems a bit bizarre to me.

Inspector Sands: Doubt it. We may end up starting our nights out a little later, though - good news for Friday nights, where the shit / shave / shower (or judicious application of lippy) can be undertaken in a more relaxed atmosphere. I was lucky enough to spend a Sunday night in Helsinki a couple of weeks back - bar open until 4am, most people starting their nights at around 10pm, starting to go home around 1am.

Swiss Toni: Liberalising the licensing laws may change the timings of a typical night out, but I would be surprised if it changes the way that people drink to any great extent.

Girl: I would hope that [“café culture”] might be possible in the UK too - as long as we can learn to be civilised with alcohol and not only drink it to get drunk. (I doubt it, but I have hope).

Swiss Toni: It’s not about the cafés, it’s about the way that people drink. In countries like France and Italy, drinking is part of the culture, but they don’t drink solely to get drunk. You might have a glass of wine with your lunch, or an aperitif in the evening after work, but the drink is not an end to itself. In this country (and to be fair, in some other countries in Europe, especially in Scandinavia), we drink to get drunk. This might change over time, but it might not.

Pete: We are highly unlikely to see a move to the café culture of Europe within the next decade. In any case, this idea has always been a bit of a misnomer, as plenty of Europeans drink themselves silly on a regular basis. Nevertheless, they somehow manage to do so without the consequences for policing (and in some cases health) that accompany many nights out in the UK. Perhaps it's a question of mentality and society. In the UK, Friday night is seen as an opportunity to go out and get wrecked. In fact, for some people the night has been wasted if they're not drunkenly spewing outside a kebab shop by midnight. Whereas in Europe, Friday is usually used as an opportunity to socialise and alcohol is merely one part of this.

What are the health implications of the change?

Girl: I imagine there will be quite a steep rise initially in alcohol-related incapacitation and accidents as a result of over-indulgence, but I would think these would be relatively temporary as the novelty of late-night drinking wears off in the coming months / years. As for long-term effects – well, I don't expect to see any decline in alcohol-related illnesses, put it that way.

Ben: As someone who certainly enjoys a drink and broadly welcomes the law change, one of my concerns is the fact that Scotland (where the licensing laws have been more liberal for years) has the least healthy population in Europe. There are undoubtedly numerous contributory factors to this, including diet and lifestyle, but it does make me wonder whether liberalisation was necessarily such a good move in England. Time will tell, of course – it’s far too early to say.

Swiss Toni: I don’t believe that it will mean we will have a sudden increase in the number of cases of cirrhosis, if that’s what you mean... I don’t think it will ultimately make much difference to the amount of booze that people drink, but hopefully it will be spread out over a longer period of time. Perhaps the A&E departments of our hospitals will see less of a rush around midnight and have the load better spread across the night?

Dave: Hospitals will hopefully now not be inundated with drunken injuries between 11 and 12pm.

Inspector Sands: Well, if you create a society of miserable wage slaves in debt up to their eyeballs, they're going to look for ways to escape it. I don't think the drinking hours themselves have that much to do with it - it's why people feel the need to get regularly legless, to continue their teenage habits into their 30s, that needs attention. Over the civilised dining tables of Islington and Notting Hill, I doubt it's much of a concern, though.

What are the implications of the change for policing?

Dave: More police will be needed for the first few years but I think this will settle down.

Swiss Toni: The big problem with the old British licensing laws are that they force everyone out into the street at the same time. British town centres are horrible after closing time; packs of drunks stagger about shouting, singing, pissing and throwing up. Changing the licensing laws may not reduce the total number of these drunks, but hopefully it will spread them out across the night, which has got to make it easier to police, hasn’t it?

Girl: Initially I think the police force may be put under some strain if the potential increase in public disorder overwhelms them. But overall I think staggered closing times for pubs and bars will see an end to “turfing-out time” and no longer will we have thousands of drunken people all on the streets at one time – which clearly was a recipe for disaster for all involved.

JonnyB: I'm not sure about the change, but soon we will find the police having even more massive recruitment problems. If police work becomes more and more “Saturday night being sworn at and hit by drunken yobs” then I can't see anything other than a big exodus of good people who joined up to help society by catching burglars.

Inspector Sands: More pissed-off and over-stretched police officers. Of course, we're a society that's taught you can always do things on the cheap, so naturally we forgot to make sure there's the coppers to police the change. Just like we forgot to make sure there's the buses home etc.

Ben: This is another of my concerns. If there is a major uptake of the new later licenses, then is there going to be a corresponding investment in the whole infrastructure surrounding the drinks industry? It’s unclear whether alcohol-fuelled disturbances will increase (the staggered closing times may help, but if they don’t the police already claim to be stretched to breaking point in terms of manpower and resources), but what is certain is that public transport links need to run later to cater for those who can’t afford a night out and an expensive taxi at the end of it. This additional money shouldn’t necessarily come from the public purse – the drinks industry is phenomenally profitable, and should foot more of the bill for policing and transport.

Is the Government sending out mixed messages by relaxing the licensing laws at the same time as it seeks to clamp down on binge drinking and anti-social behaviour?

Swiss Toni: No. People have got to take personal responsibility for the amount that they drink and the way that they behave. Government legislation is hardly likely to help. The Government should not be able to tell me when I can start drinking and when I can stop drinking. The old licensing laws were antiquated and needed to be changed. By all means inform people about the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption, but we don’t need a nanny state.

Inspector Sands: Not really, it always needs something to wring its hands about and avoid responsibility for. Changing the licensing laws was long overdue and something the Tories would surely have done if they'd have got in again in 1997. Binge drinking and anti-social behaviour are wider ills that'll never be cured under our current system.

Girl: Ambiguity is nothing new for governments – especially this Labour one. Seriously though, I don't think it’s a mixed message: English people need to learn to drink responsibly and stop behaving like morons and with staggered closing times meaning a smaller concentration of drunken people on the streets at any one time, I think it'll be less likely that there'll be fights.

Ben: As has been implied above, the relaxation of the licensing laws and the crackdown on / stigmatization of binge drinking needn’t be seen as contradictory measures. If people know bars are open later, then they’re less likely to feel the need to chuck as much lager as they possibly can down their neck in a short space of time.

Pete: I think a great deal of the UK's problems are down to the people behind the bar. There was a good report in the Observer a few weeks ago, describing how irresponsible many bar staff are when they serve people dangerous levels of alcohol. It is perhaps telling that the UK is the only country in Europe where so many high streets are full of "chain" pubs and bars such as Wetherspoons, Yates, JD Edwards etc whose main business objective is to sell as much alcohol as possible.

JonnyB: Not sure about “mixed messages” but it's a feeble way to go about things in isolation. Had they at the same time confronted the breweries by setting strict rules about factors like seating in pubs (as I understand it, there's strong evidence that this reduces unthinking consumption as people don't have to hold their pint all the time), the promotion of larger measures etc, then there might have been a little less cynicism. All sorts of things are relevant: pubs that want to put on live music are faced with nothing but legal obstruction rather than given the incentives that they should be – regardless of artistic reasons, they're providing a night out where you can have a few beers but that drinking isn't the “point” of the evening. There are all sorts of little things that could be done that would contribute, but nobody seems interested in tackling them.

Dave: I hate kids so kids in “family pubs” should be banned (while we're on this subject let’s ban them from supermarkets and cinemas too).

Pete: Ultimately, I think the Government has made a step in the right direction, but the desired results won’t occur with the space of a few weeks. It’s worth considering that there is still one step that the UK is yet to take. Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece and others allow drinking (wine and beer) at 16; Switzerland's minimum age is 14, while Poland and Portugal have no minimum drinking age. It would be interesting to see what the Government (and the public) would think of this option.

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Thanks to Dave, Girl, Inspector Sands, JonnyB, Pete and Swiss Toni for their thoughts. Go ahead and add yours in the comments box.